Derek Ratzlaff – Technical Director at WoodWorks BC sat down with Kassie Fraser, Operations Manager, and Jesse Wills, Construction Manager, from Seagate Mass Timber to talk about their thoughts on mass timber installation, what they see as trends in the industry, and how Seagate is evolving with this market.
Derek Ratzlaff: It’s great to have you both here, thanks for sitting down with me. My first question is what are the origins of Seagate Mass Timber and how did it start.
Jesse Wills: Seagate started as a family-owned framing contractor. Over time, our founder Ralph Austin pushed into offsite prefabrication of light wood frame walls. As that business grew, mass timber started to inch closer to the spotlight
at least locally here in BC. Because Seagate was really focused on shop drawing and review of offsite prefab, the company was in a very strong position to step into the mass timber game.
The Brock Commons building, the tallest wood hybrid building in the world at that time, that project really put our name on the map for timber and helped drive the business to really focus mainly on mass timber and move out of the framing space.
Derek Ratzlaff: Where do you see the company going now and in the future?
Jesse Wills: It depends on the market that we're looking at, we see large differences depending on where we're working. Here in BC, because of the seismic zone we're in, the projects that we are involved in have heavy steel elements combined with timber in hybrid builds. Another area of growth is the use of prefabricated envelope panels for Passive House and other high-performance systems. The use of these integrated systems within mass timber construction has opened the door for us to use our experience in the review of shop drawings for prefabricated assemblies, and use those skill sets for many different materials.
Derek Ratzlaff: Is facade installation an area that Seagate is expanding into?
Jesse Wills: Yes, Seagate has installed prefabricated facade panels on three projects.
We are working on our 4th right now, the Vienna House project, which is not a fully prefabricated envelope panel, but a structural assembly that includes insulation, rain-screen, and membrane.
Kassie Fraser: The plan going forward is for Seagate to take on more -more scope and more of the prefabricated products that Jesse's mentioned. We have also taken on the steel scope for several point-supported mass timber projects as well.
There is a lot of potential scope we have either already tried or are willing to look at, like steel prefabricated envelope panels, bathroom pods. The pods have not been a recurring scope for us, but it is something that we are interested in adding to our installation scope. The last area we are currently reviewing is delegated design for projects, which we have done in the past, but might be a larger focus if we want to take some brave steps into new areas.
Derek Ratzlaff: That sounds great and I’m excited to see what happens as you move forward.
Have you seen procurement models or contractual models that have been working well in recent projects? It's an area where the industry is still finding its feet. Are you seeing processes that are becoming more typical now that work well for you?
Jesse Wills: Again, I think this varies quite a bit depending on several factors. Considerations including project location, project team makeup, and what the comfort level is with different models are critical. So locally, here in BC we see more contracts for supply and install separated because the contractors local to the Vancouver market understand timber. This extends to the engineering firms and many parts of the industry here that often have a good understanding of timber building design and construction.
In other markets, they may go to a turnkey model or look for design assist because they don't have the same familiarity with the material and with connection design. Many clients don’t know who to bring into the project, so they want to just buy an entire package to de-risk that portion of the project. At Seagate we have seen both of these models work successfully.
We feel that one of Seagate's strengths is the fact that we don't have to come in via one model. We can come in as install only, or we can set up with a full supply and install, and even include specialty engineering, if a turnkey approach is required.
Derek Ratzlaff: How do you see the installation industry evolving? Do you think increased specialization is a trend?
Jesse Wills: I don't know where others are going. From my experience in the industry and my previous time in general contracting, I don’t think specialization is the right word.
Because of the complex makeup of all the projects in BC, people need to be able to bring a wider skill set.
Kassie Fraser: In our experience on American projects, we are seeing a lot more in-depth collaboration from project teams. From the consultants to the GC to every sub-trade. We've thought about what drives that the most. Those projects have liquidated damages clauses in the construction contracts so I think that's a big reason why everybody's pulling the same direction, so that not everyone is responsible for the damages that come from loss of schedule. At the same time, there's a great deal of camaraderie and focus to drive the projects to completion on time. With those projects, the projected schedule and actual schedule are extremely close.
Jesse Wills: We often see project success being defined by a fast construction schedule and that doesn't work when you're trying to bounce different trades in and out of the schedule. The more one contractor or subcontractor can bring to the table and hold more scope the more efficient the schedule will be.
The BCIT Student Housing building was a great schedule success. The schedule estimate was beaten, and two weeks after the roof structure was complete, there was 100% complete roof and envelope. That was because of the hybrid approach to install where all the contractors bring multiple skill sets into the room.
Kassie Fraser: I think there's another aspect of this as well. The appetite for every company to take on multiple scopes is not always there. Not every company is interested in taking on different procurement types, for instance turnkey packages, because there is a lot of risk that comes with that. I think we'll see some companies focus more on mass timber installation while others may take on a broader scope.
But I don't think we will have an industry where every single mass timber installer will pursue the full turnkey project model. At Seagate, if every project we took was a turnkey supply and install project, we would have to grow our team significantly. And while I think we would be interested in that, I don't think all installers would.
Derek Ratzlaff: What is an interesting project you are involved in right now?
Kassie Fraser: We're currently working on the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library.
I believe it’s the 16th presidential library in the US. It's basically an art piece and monument combined in the form of a building. The complexity means that there are something like 230 different column connections. From those, there are only 5 to 10 that are similar, so it's probably our most complex build. It's been a great experience. The project team there is extremely collaborative and everybody is really working towards that same goal of finishing the project and delivering a quality product.
So that's been a really cool experience for us.
Derek Ratzlaff: Thanks so much for your time, it is great to hear about what’s happening at Seagate right now.
*This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Derek Ratzlaff: It’s great to have you both here, thanks for sitting down with me. My first question is what are the origins of Seagate Mass Timber and how did it start.
Jesse Wills: Seagate started as a family-owned framing contractor. Over time, our founder Ralph Austin pushed into offsite prefabrication of light wood frame walls. As that business grew, mass timber started to inch closer to the spotlight
at least locally here in BC. Because Seagate was really focused on shop drawing and review of offsite prefab, the company was in a very strong position to step into the mass timber game.
The Brock Commons building, the tallest wood hybrid building in the world at that time, that project really put our name on the map for timber and helped drive the business to really focus mainly on mass timber and move out of the framing space.
Derek Ratzlaff: Where do you see the company going now and in the future?
Jesse Wills: It depends on the market that we're looking at, we see large differences depending on where we're working. Here in BC, because of the seismic zone we're in, the projects that we are involved in have heavy steel elements combined with timber in hybrid builds. Another area of growth is the use of prefabricated envelope panels for Passive House and other high-performance systems. The use of these integrated systems within mass timber construction has opened the door for us to use our experience in the review of shop drawings for prefabricated assemblies, and use those skill sets for many different materials.
Derek Ratzlaff: Is facade installation an area that Seagate is expanding into?
Jesse Wills: Yes, Seagate has installed prefabricated facade panels on three projects.
We are working on our 4th right now, the Vienna House project, which is not a fully prefabricated envelope panel, but a structural assembly that includes insulation, rain-screen, and membrane.
Kassie Fraser: The plan going forward is for Seagate to take on more -more scope and more of the prefabricated products that Jesse's mentioned. We have also taken on the steel scope for several point-supported mass timber projects as well.
There is a lot of potential scope we have either already tried or are willing to look at, like steel prefabricated envelope panels, bathroom pods. The pods have not been a recurring scope for us, but it is something that we are interested in adding to our installation scope. The last area we are currently reviewing is delegated design for projects, which we have done in the past, but might be a larger focus if we want to take some brave steps into new areas.
Derek Ratzlaff: That sounds great and I’m excited to see what happens as you move forward.
Have you seen procurement models or contractual models that have been working well in recent projects? It's an area where the industry is still finding its feet. Are you seeing processes that are becoming more typical now that work well for you?
Jesse Wills: Again, I think this varies quite a bit depending on several factors. Considerations including project location, project team makeup, and what the comfort level is with different models are critical. So locally, here in BC we see more contracts for supply and install separated because the contractors local to the Vancouver market understand timber. This extends to the engineering firms and many parts of the industry here that often have a good understanding of timber building design and construction.
In other markets, they may go to a turnkey model or look for design assist because they don't have the same familiarity with the material and with connection design. Many clients don’t know who to bring into the project, so they want to just buy an entire package to de-risk that portion of the project. At Seagate we have seen both of these models work successfully.
We feel that one of Seagate's strengths is the fact that we don't have to come in via one model. We can come in as install only, or we can set up with a full supply and install, and even include specialty engineering, if a turnkey approach is required.
Derek Ratzlaff: How do you see the installation industry evolving? Do you think increased specialization is a trend?
Jesse Wills: I don't know where others are going. From my experience in the industry and my previous time in general contracting, I don’t think specialization is the right word.
Because of the complex makeup of all the projects in BC, people need to be able to bring a wider skill set.
Kassie Fraser: In our experience on American projects, we are seeing a lot more in-depth collaboration from project teams. From the consultants to the GC to every sub-trade. We've thought about what drives that the most. Those projects have liquidated damages clauses in the construction contracts so I think that's a big reason why everybody's pulling the same direction, so that not everyone is responsible for the damages that come from loss of schedule. At the same time, there's a great deal of camaraderie and focus to drive the projects to completion on time. With those projects, the projected schedule and actual schedule are extremely close.
Jesse Wills: We often see project success being defined by a fast construction schedule and that doesn't work when you're trying to bounce different trades in and out of the schedule. The more one contractor or subcontractor can bring to the table and hold more scope the more efficient the schedule will be.
The BCIT Student Housing building was a great schedule success. The schedule estimate was beaten, and two weeks after the roof structure was complete, there was 100% complete roof and envelope. That was because of the hybrid approach to install where all the contractors bring multiple skill sets into the room.
Kassie Fraser: I think there's another aspect of this as well. The appetite for every company to take on multiple scopes is not always there. Not every company is interested in taking on different procurement types, for instance turnkey packages, because there is a lot of risk that comes with that. I think we'll see some companies focus more on mass timber installation while others may take on a broader scope.
But I don't think we will have an industry where every single mass timber installer will pursue the full turnkey project model. At Seagate, if every project we took was a turnkey supply and install project, we would have to grow our team significantly. And while I think we would be interested in that, I don't think all installers would.
Derek Ratzlaff: What is an interesting project you are involved in right now?
Kassie Fraser: We're currently working on the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library.
I believe it’s the 16th presidential library in the US. It's basically an art piece and monument combined in the form of a building. The complexity means that there are something like 230 different column connections. From those, there are only 5 to 10 that are similar, so it's probably our most complex build. It's been a great experience. The project team there is extremely collaborative and everybody is really working towards that same goal of finishing the project and delivering a quality product.
So that's been a really cool experience for us.
Derek Ratzlaff: Thanks so much for your time, it is great to hear about what’s happening at Seagate right now.
*This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Derek Ratzlaff – Technical Director at WoodWorks BC sat down with Kassie Fraser, Operations Manager, and Jesse Wills, Construction Manager, from Seagate Mass Timber to talk about their thoughts on mass timber installation, what they see as trends in the industry, and how Seagate is evolving with this market.